Author Topic: Storm Edge finder  (Read 18917 times)

NSavani

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 56
    • View Profile
Re: Storm Edge finder
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2011, 09:40:45 am »

 Let's find more.   :D :D

haha thats great   ;D ;D  ... but i'm not sure i can keep up..  :-[
I am glad at least this is project has wet your appetites, and a little shocked at the speed you which you can find these  :o
well done all,
thanks
« Last Edit: May 02, 2011, 09:43:09 am by NSavani »

lpspieler

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 329
    • View Profile
Re: Storm Edge finder
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2011, 07:28:42 pm »
haha thats great   ;D ;D  ... but i'm not sure i can keep up..  :-[
I am glad at least this is project has wet your appetites, and a little shocked at the speed you which you can find these  :o

I'd like to use this occasion to reiterate Quia's question: is there any kind of CME that is better suited for this task than others?

In your blog post you said:
Quote from: NSavani
Here the idea is no longer emphasising a simple circle shape- so we can accommodate more awkward/bent/distorted shapes.
This might be understood such that every storm we find in any SPOT video is suited for the edge finding task. If this is the case then it's obvious that the number of classified storms could increase very rapidly, even with the (until now) low number of participants. So any ideas on how to make cuts on the set of classifiable CMEs would be greatly appreciated.

cheers
« Last Edit: May 02, 2011, 07:32:08 pm by lpspieler »

Quialiss

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 494
    • View Profile
Re: Storm Edge finder
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2011, 01:16:12 am »
I'm having a hard task finding nice circular storms for this, but how about this one?
It's a lovely circle, but the base of it sneaks away out of shot as it grows.....
http://www.solarstormwatch.com/favourites/4565
or, if this link is right,

20101022 Starting at 16.60, A
Rookwings: 20.60

[I have my monitor's brightness right up to see better, in case that makes a difference?]

P.S., Yikes, I don't think the date number will work, sorry  ???

I'm going to confuse this one a bit, because I've seen this one in Spot, and it shows up in B, too.  The times for the spot video are 18 seconds ahead of the one you posted, Rookwings, so 20.60 becomes 38.60, and the new link/date are...

20101017 starting at 34.6, A & B
Rookwings: A 38.60
Quialiss: A 38.80 B 38.60


p.s. Rookwings, if you quote this post you can see how I made the 'date' url, jules also did a wonderful post 'How to post pictures links and videos' that's stickied somewhere that explains how these things work.

NSavani

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 56
    • View Profile
Re: Storm Edge finder
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2011, 09:09:29 am »

I'd like to use this occasion to reiterate Quia's question: is there any kind of CME that is better suited for this task than others?

In your blog post you said:
Quote from: NSavani
Here the idea is no longer emphasising a simple circle shape- so we can accommodate more awkward/bent/distorted shapes.
This might be understood such that every storm we find in any SPOT video is suited for the edge finding task. If this is the case then it's obvious that the number of classified storms could increase very rapidly, even with the (until now) low number of participants. So any ideas on how to make cuts on the set of classifiable CMEs would be greatly appreciated.

cheers

mmh.. i will try to create a few snap shots of other CMEs which would not be appropriate tomorrow. But the simplest way to think about it would be to search with a very critical eye and look for circular storms- but if they happen not to be circular (perhaps like a triangle or ellipse or bean-shaped) then you can include them here.

perhaps that enought to keep you going until i create some images for you?

ps Quialiss - 20101017- tomorrow i will also look into your multi CMEs in this movie and have a go at deciphering it.

Quialiss

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 494
    • View Profile
Re: Storm Edge finder
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2011, 02:06:44 pm »
Thank you for the clarification Neel!  Almost but not necessarily circular.. so, the rejects of the circular storm project get a home. ;)  Some of the previously posted storms probably don't fit the bill, then... especially they ones I asked about.  They're all very easy to see how the shape changes.. their very weird shapes. 

(This wasn't a duplicate of the first storm lp posted as an example, I swear!  ::) ::))
« Last Edit: May 15, 2011, 12:16:52 am by Quialiss »

voyager1682002

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 140
    • View Profile
Re: Storm Edge finder
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2011, 03:38:49 pm »
I took this from the "Circular Storm" collections

20071101
starting at around 15.00, A only
Voyager1682002 : 17.60

Starting at around 51.40, B only
voyager1682002 : 54.30



Quialiss

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 494
    • View Profile
Re: Storm Edge finder
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2011, 07:45:06 pm »
20071101
starting at around 15.00, A only
Voyager1682002 : 17.60
Quialiss:  17.80

Starting at around 51.40, B only
voyager1682002 : 54.30
Quialiss: 54.70


Aaand another one that may or may not fit the 'circular' criteria.. It's circular!  There's just two of them.  I don't know if that makes it more interesting, or too complicated to work with.

20101201 Starting 24.6, A & B
'Blue'
Quialiss: A 28.50 B 28.30
'Orange'
Quialiss: A 28.6 B 28.2

Rookwings

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 122
    • View Profile
Re: Storm Edge finder
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2011, 12:08:46 am »
To Quialiss, re your post,
Reply #17 on: May 04, 2011, 12:16:12 AM [to save quoting the whole thing]

Thank you for that. I neglected to mention that my example came from a "What's That" favourite, and I'd forgotten that there'd be a timing difference from finding it in "Spot".

I must confess to not yet reading the "how to post pictures, etc.", because I'd seen some very nice clear instructions in another thread, but when I eventually needed it, I couldn't remember which one!  ::)
I'll remember where to look now, though, so thank you.

Another question arising from your reply [sorry] is - how did you use my What's That favourite and turn it into a Spot video?
Did you already have it, and recognised it, or is there a way to "call up" videos from one task to view in another.
If the answer to that is in jules' instruction post, I'll feel daft for not going there first, and expect a barrage of rotten tomatoes from you ;D

Quialiss

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 494
    • View Profile
Re: Storm Edge finder
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2011, 02:18:44 am »
I wish there was a way to easily go from the same time in What's That to Spot, but there isn't(Oh dear.  You just gave me an idea for a project...) I just recognized the storm from a previous video. 

The tomatoes can stay in the compost. :D  Questions are good!


NSavani

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 56
    • View Profile
Re: Storm Edge finder
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2011, 10:36:28 am »
Adding to..

A pretty triangular storm.  Wouldn't make the grade for a circular storm, but it does have a very defined shape.
20101017 starting around 4, A & B
Quialiss: A 6.70 B 6.60

There are actually a number of interesting storms in that clip, I wonder if they're interesting in terms of this project?  there's a storm starting 20 that simply doesn't have a back(but is otherwise well defined, at least on Ahead, until the front reaches the edge of the frame) and another at 35 that is massive and very well defined, but because of the size one side of the storm runs out of the FOV quite early... and another at 45.5 that has such a weird shape I was having trouble figuring out what I would call the 'bottom' that I decided to post the triangular storm from the beginning of the clip. 


- The triangle one at ~6 is a good example.
- the no - rear edge at 20 is not a good example. I would consider this as a storm with an incorrect orientation (i.e. there is no way of defining the positin of the rear accurately. This storm and others like this have a use, but i will have to think of another project and its scientific usefulness.
- the 35. again not applicable for this study as the storm is orientated differently- so that the cross-section (circular bit) can not be clearly seen. However, it is a GREAT EXAMPLE of a shock front, (i think ???) :o :o.. see the image below.


- 45.5 event.. i think this is ok. but i agree, it is a tricky one. i recon i can see it to 50.40, maybe  ???

« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 10:38:06 am by NSavani »

NSavani

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 56
    • View Profile
Re: Storm Edge finder
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2011, 10:43:03 am »
20071101
starting at around 15.00, A only
Voyager1682002 : 17.60
Quialiss:  17.80

Starting at around 51.40, B only
voyager1682002 : 54.30
Quialiss: 54.70

Aaand another one that may or may not fit the 'circular' criteria.. It's circular!  There's just two of them.  I don't know if that makes it more interesting, or too complicated to work with.
well i do not see a reason not to include them- even though they are really weird. a nice find. i think there is some interesting science behind the interactions of 2 storms.

Rookwings

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 122
    • View Profile
Re: Storm Edge finder
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2011, 12:21:13 am »
See, now I'm losing confidence again....  :-[
- and I've only posted one example and not seen different results from anyone else's examples.
Point 1:
Have I been marking shock fronts in Spot tasks as storm edges, and doing it wrong?
Point 2:
Any storm other than a perfect circle shouldn't be included here?
Point 3:
Why are circular storms so important? Does any other formation not carry the same effect/danger to earth and space-borne human objects?
Or is it simply a matter of the circular shape being the best understood type in terms of study?
I do hope these questions aren't making you lot roll your eyes; I'd love to join in and help, at least knowing a little of what I'm doing.
Point 4: should I get more experience with the standard tasks before I attempt this? I do tend to run before I can walk.  ;)

Quialiss

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 494
    • View Profile
Re: Storm Edge finder
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2011, 01:06:11 am »
well i do not see a reason not to include them- even though they are really weird. a nice find. i think there is some interesting science behind the interactions of 2 storms.
Thank you for the comments Neel!  It really helps in figuring out what should be posted here and what not to post.  Now I just need to find you some more interesting ones!

Point 1:
Have I been marking shock fronts in Spot tasks as storm edges, and doing it wrong?
The idea with Spot is to mark the time when the first part of the storm, whatever that may be, when it gets to the line, and it sounds like that's what you're doing.  Don't stop!   ;D
Quote
Point 2:
Any storm other than a perfect circle shouldn't be included here?
Point 3:
Why are circular storms so important? Does any other formation not carry the same effect/danger to earth and space-borne human objects?
Or is it simply a matter of the circular shape being the best understood type in terms of study?
I do hope these questions aren't making you lot roll your eyes; I'd love to join in and help, at least knowing a little of what I'm doing.
Short answer?  No, not just circular storms here, and they're interesting because they're easier to study. 
Longer answer... I'm going to quote Neel, when we first started picking out circular storms (the topic is here), keeping in mind that this is a slightly different project, but that all the storms picked out for that project are probably interesting for this one.  The two blog posts that started these, for further reading..
http://blogs.zooniverse.org/solarstormwatch/2010/05/what-it%E2%80%99s-like-to-be-a-solar-scientist/
http://blogs.zooniverse.org/solarstormwatch/2011/03/storm-edge-finder-x-marks-the-spots/

Hello zooites. thank you all for your enthusiasm on this idea.  :) :)
Firstly, I would like to apologise for not replying for an incredibly long time. I fell of the radar with regards to SSW.  :( :(
no real excuse apart from being busy. Now I have seen that there are lots of questions that need answering. I will try replying to as many as possible today.   ;D

For starters, generally anything circular is great, but ideally it should remain circular for as long as possible in the images. I will look at the links provided in this thread.

For those wondering why circular stuff is interesting, the science is as follows (sorry its a little long):

-the shape solar storms are often dictated by their magnetic fields, and how they form just above the surface of the Sun.
-The magnetic field lines on the Sun are slightly more complicated than Earths simple bar-magnet idea. On Earth the surface crust is solid- on the Sun it is a fluid, like a liquid.
-This means the magnetic field lines that go through the surface get twisted as the fluid moves around.
-After some more science.... and stuff we do not completely understand these field lines tend to end up in a shape of a helix (like a stand of DNA). Therefore the overall shape is like a cylinder
-This structures traps some plasma and energetic particles which then explode out into space. These are what we call sloar storms.
- Often, due to the dynamic nature of the Sun, this simple story is complicated by other things. In the same way as how different tornadoes on Earth all have different shapes and behave slightly differently.
- By looking for circular storms, we can  try to investigate the ideal solar storm without having to guess the other uncertainties and complications.

Having said this, something that is interesting is a storm that may start circular but then change shape. This may lead to understanding of how solar storms are affected by its surroundings.

ok hopefully this has got your taste bits going.
ps. all questions welcome
Neel

Quote
Point 4: should I get more experience with the standard tasks before I attempt this? I do tend to run before I can walk.  ;)
With the exception of just getting used to what storms looks like, more experience in the 'standard' tasks isn't really all that necessary.  On the other hand, to trying to figure out what's an 'interesting' storm it might be a good idea to go browse the circular storms topic, to see what Neel means when he says you have to be able to see the whole shape of the storm(And knowing that if the triangular storm that I posted here that Neel said was good for this project is good, the slightly oval or bean shaped or warped storms that were not quite good enough for the circular storms project are good for this one!).  You could also go through this topic and add your opinion to the storms that have been picked out by other people. 

And as for the eyerolling about questions... I'll say it again, questions are never a bad thing!

Quia

srcrothers

  • Science Team
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 329
    • View Profile
Re: Storm Edge finder
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2011, 10:37:07 am »
I would just like to comment that anything you thing "looks interesting" is worth sharing.  A main science theme that permeates the whole of the zooniverse has been serendipitous discoveries that appear through the forums.

What I say is challenge the scientists to explain what they are doing!

Steve  ;D ???

NSavani

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 56
    • View Profile
Re: Storm Edge finder
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2011, 10:55:10 am »

What I say is challenge the scientists to explain what they are doing!

Steve  ;D ???

I agree. You should always ask questions. and challege the ideas of scientists..... but please be gentle with me  ;)  :D

Rookwings: dont worry about it. especially dont worry about the shock front/CME front thing. As replied by Quialiss, What you have been doing is correct. The exact definition for the location of the shock front is debatable and should not be considered for the spot tasks.

neel